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Sean 
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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 Posted - 09/22/2006 : 04:47:31
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quote:
Originally posted by M0rkeleb
I'd like to suggest throwing in A Scanner Darkly.
I haven't seen it yet either, but it does sound dystopic. I've added it but will remove it if anyone who's seen it is pretty sure it doesn't count. |
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GHcool
"Forever a curious character."
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Posted - 09/22/2006 : 04:49:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
Final Cut - Haven't seen it. Is there anything particularly wrong with this future society? Anyone? It does sound similar to eXistenZ, ie, a future society with serious technology, but is that all there is to it?
The Final Cut, like eXistenZ and Strange Days, takes place in a future world that is every bit like our own present world except for the addition of one kind of dehumanizing technology. There is no mention at all about society outside of the principle character's lives except for the fact that there are some people who oppose the technology and protest against it. |
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 09/22/2006 : 05:19:21
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Thanks. 
Another one that's cropped up on dystopia lists is Demolition Man. My foggy memory of this is that it's set in a happy future, i.e., utopia, with one criminal. Does anyone else recall the society in this one? |
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randall 
"I like to watch."
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Posted - 09/22/2006 : 12:02:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
Thanks.
Another one that's cropped up on dystopia lists is Demolition Man. My foggy memory of this is that it's set in a happy future, i.e., utopia, with one criminal. Does anyone else recall the society in this one?
Yes, it's a dumbed-down, everybody's-happy society where fast food is fine dining, there's virtually no crime, and you have to pay a fine every time you curse. [Star Sylvester Stallone pays a fortune.] Underneath [literally] is a group of rebels led by Denis Leary who think all this is bullshit. Then you throw in a vicious killer, played by Wesley Snipes.
I'd call it a dystopian society, though the movie plays that aspect for laughs. |
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 09/22/2006 : 12:42:34
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Hmmm, the danger here is, how imperfect does a 'utopia' have to be before it's called a dystopia? I mean the society in Demolition Man sounds squeaky clean and everyone's happy, hence it's a better society than our society now, so how can it be dystopian? Sure, I'd like to be able to swear without copping a fine, but I'd happily trade swearing for an absence of war, crime etc.
I can see how any futuristic fictional society is going to be labelled 'dystopian' by someone if there's a little thing missing that they want. But I think that if there's nothing significantly 'wrong' with it, then I wouldn't call it a dystopia. |
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ChocolateLady 
"500 Chocolate Delights"
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Posted - 09/22/2006 : 14:42:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
Hmmm, the danger here is, how imperfect does a 'utopia' have to be before it's called a dystopia? I mean the society in Demolition Man sounds squeaky clean and everyone's happy, hence it's a better society than our society now, so how can it be dystopian? Sure, I'd like to be able to swear without copping a fine, but I'd happily trade swearing for an absence of war, crime etc.
I can see how any futuristic fictional society is going to be labelled 'dystopian' by someone if there's a little thing missing that they want. But I think that if there's nothing significantly 'wrong' with it, then I wouldn't call it a dystopia.
How many fucturistic fictional movies do you know of where everything really is as perfect as it seems on the surface?
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Downtown 
"Welcome back, Billy Buck"
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Posted - 09/22/2006 : 16:32:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
Hmmm, the danger here is, how imperfect does a 'utopia' have to be before it's called a dystopia? I mean the society in Demolition Man sounds squeaky clean and everyone's happy, hence it's a better society than our society now, so how can it be dystopian? Sure, I'd like to be able to swear without copping a fine, but I'd happily trade swearing for an absence of war, crime etc.
I can see how any futuristic fictional society is going to be labelled 'dystopian' by someone if there's a little thing missing that they want. But I think that if there's nothing significantly 'wrong' with it, then I wouldn't call it a dystopia.
Sex is against the law.
That's imperfect enough for me. |
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randall
"I like to watch."
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Posted - 09/22/2006 : 16:34:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
Hmmm, the danger here is, how imperfect does a 'utopia' have to be before it's called a dystopia? I mean the society in Demolition Man sounds squeaky clean and everyone's happy, hence it's a better society than our society now, so how can it be dystopian? Sure, I'd like to be able to swear without copping a fine, but I'd happily trade swearing for an absence of war, crime etc.
I can see how any futuristic fictional society is going to be labelled 'dystopian' by someone if there's a little thing missing that they want. But I think that if there's nothing significantly 'wrong' with it, then I wouldn't call it a dystopia.
I think the joke in DEMO MAN is that the society is too squeaky-clean [Bullock loves to sing commercial jingles in the cop car, to Stallone's consternation -- he's also from our era], and it takes the Denis Leary revolutionary gang to remind us that this is not the natural order. What's "wrong" is that even the cops are so clueless and innocent that they're unable to deal with a real hardened criminal [the Snipes character]. And at the end, the two sides come together into what the audience views as stasis. I'd still call the DEMO MAN society "dystopian," even if, as I said, the film plays this plot point for laughs. |
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Downtown
"Welcome back, Billy Buck"
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Posted - 09/22/2006 : 16:35:06
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quote:
Originally posted by ChocolateLady
How many fucturistic fictional movies do you know of where everything really is as perfect as it seems on the surface?
The closest I can think of are Star Trek. It's not a real "utopia," because there are problems that need to be dealt with on occasion, but it fits the definition of Utopian Socialist (not the same as "Utopia") perfectly. |
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 09/22/2006 : 23:29:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
Hmmm, the danger here is, how imperfect does a 'utopia' have to be before it's called a dystopia? I mean the society in Demolition Man sounds squeaky clean and everyone's happy, hence it's a better society than our society now, so how can it be dystopian? Sure, I'd like to be able to swear without copping a fine, but I'd happily trade swearing for an absence of war, crime etc.
I can see how any futuristic fictional society is going to be labelled 'dystopian' by someone if there's a little thing missing that they want. But I think that if there's nothing significantly 'wrong' with it, then I wouldn't call it a dystopia.
Sex is against the law.
That's imperfect enough for me.
 I've added it.  |
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 09/22/2006 : 23:38:02
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quote:
Originally posted by ChocolateLady
How many futuristic fictional movies do you know of where everything really is as perfect as it seems on the surface?
You could say the same about current Western societies. Many like to think of them or portray them as paradise (freedom, leisure, material contentment etc), but scratch under the surface and some would say corporations run the societies for their own benefit.
Or tropical paradises in the Pacific. Scratch under the surface and many aren't too far from ethnic civil war. |
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 09/23/2006 : 23:56:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
quote:
Originally posted by ChocolateLady
How many futuristic fictional movies do you know of where everything really is as perfect as it seems on the surface?
The closest I can think of are Star Trek. It's not a real "utopia," because there are problems that need to be dealt with on occasion, but it fits the definition of Utopian Socialist (not the same as "Utopia") perfectly.
I think in a lot of futuristic movies, the 'imperfection' in the society is the reason for the movie being made. I.e., the protagonist is there to 'fix' what's wrong, or at least expose it, or become a victim of it.
This doesn't apply with Star Trek, as the narratives are based around a high-tech human society exploring the galaxy, so there's no need to portray anything wrong with the society. On the contrary, if humans have surplus resources for exploring the galaxy it's more plausible if earth is portrayed as a prosperous, fair society whose principal motive is a quest for more knowledge, and that there are no significant 'problems' remaining on earth. |
Edited by - Sean on 09/23/2006 23:57:46 |
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 09/24/2006 : 00:33:17
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Ok, for the purposes of this accolade, I've tried to simplify a definition of dystopia from what I've read on the web and from posts in this thread.
All of the following need to apply:-
- An imaginary society that is a conceivable progression of human society. It may be a future progression of modern society, or a lateral progression of a past human society (i.e., an alternative present.)
- The society must be relatively stable and functioning. Post-apocalyptic anarchy doesn't fall into this category.
- Most external observers would see the society as a worse place to live than where they live now; there are substantial flaws. This does not necessarily mean that those living in the fictional society are aware of anything 'wrong' with it.
- The flaws in the society are self-inflicted. E.g., oppression by man or man-made machines and perhaps tolerance of oppression, resource depletion and/or environmental degradation, denial of reality, loss of enjoyment and/or purpose etc. Alien invasion does not fall into this category.
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Edited by - Sean on 09/24/2006 01:45:10 |
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GHcool
"Forever a curious character."
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Posted - 09/24/2006 : 01:06:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
Ok, for the purposes of this accolade, I've tried to simplify a definition of dystopia from what I've read on the web and from posts in this thread.
All of the following need to apply:-
- An imaginary society that is a conceivable progression of human society. It may be a future progression of modern society, or a lateral progression of a past human society (i.e., an alternative present.)
- The society must be relatively stable and functioning. Post-apocalyptic anarchy doesn't fall into this category.
- Most readers/viewers would see it as a worse place to live than where they live now, i.e., there are substantial flaws. This does not necessarily mean that those living in the fictional society are aware of anything 'wrong' with it.
- The flaws in the society are self-inflicted, e.g., oppression and perhaps tolerance of oppression, resource depletion and/or environmental degradation, denial of reality, loss of enjoyment and/or purpose etc.
Makes sense to me.  |
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Koli
"Striving lackadaisically for perfection."
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Posted - 09/24/2006 : 11:37:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
quote:
Originally posted by bife
How about something like 'The lion, the witch and the wardrobe'? I guess it isn't usually quoted as dystopian, but it seems to fit the requirements.
I think stuff like this is just too far removed from reality to be considered dystopian. I.e., as soon as you add aliens, talking animals, magic etc then it becomes absolute fantasy
It's Sean's accolade, so he must have the final say, but I'd like to explore the reference to talking animals. That would exclude Animal Farm, which I'd describe as dystopian. Orwell is examining a society, albeit on a small scale, and in so doing he considers concepts of equality and how oppression develops. The fact that he uses talking animals clearly takes it one step away from a story explicitly about humans, but his meaning is clear enough. Animal Farm isn't necessarily set in the future, but before anyone points that out let me add that dystopias don't have to be future worlds.
I agree with the inclusion of all the films on the list that I've seen, and have thoroughly enjoyed reading the thread. Fascinating stuff. Oh and I like the approach of the site that Bife flagged up; pity it's now 'hibernating'. |
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Dystopia
