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Beanmimo 
"August review site"
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 Posted - 09/20/2006 : 10:43:20
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Sean you really set youself up in this thread but as a result it was an interesting one to read!!
The new movie based in the P.D. James novel of the same name, "The Children of Men", will surely be part of this accolade as well. |
Edited by - Beanmimo on 09/20/2006 10:45:50 |
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Downtown
"Welcome back, Billy Buck"
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Posted - 09/20/2006 : 13:53:14
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| Don't forget the nature of Wikipedia. I could go to that website myself and say that Toy Story is an example of dystopic fiction, if I felt like it. |
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Sean 
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 09/21/2006 : 02:01:21
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My comments in blue.
Originally posted by Downtown
I can't think of any movies you've left out, so your list seems inclusive. Here are some films I think don't belong:
"28 Days Later..." Admittedly, I haven't seen it...but from what I know it's basically just a zombie movie with a twist (not a new twist...it's really just a ripoff of The Crazies) - It's not a zombie movie (the 'infected' are alive), but it's post-apocalyptic anarchy, so removed.
"Blade Runner" It's a rather bleak view of the future, but it's really just because the Earth has become so polluted. The wiki entry includes Blade Runner, but I think the required elements were in the book (which I haven't read), and not the film. But perhaps someone might have a different take on this. - Haven't seen it for a while, but wouldn't it be classed as 'corporate dystopia'? I.e., corporations essentially run the place for their own benefit?
"A Boy And His Dog" Post-apocalyptic. Civilization has been destroyed and returned to a pre-industrial state, practically the stone age. I don't think it fits the definition. I'll explain below. - I haven't see this one, but isn't the underground society (not the surface society) stratified, controlled and dystopic?
"Cube" This is just a weird movie about some strangers that wake up trapped in a strange labyrinth. No explanation is ever given. But we know nothing about their society at all. - True. But the fact that such a contraption could be constructed and people put into it is suggestive of a society quite different from ours. Dystopic or heterotopic perhaps?
"The Day After" This is a "realistic" view of the immediate aftermath of nuclear war. It really is "the day after." - Agreed, I don't recall any kind of governmental oppresion following the war. Post-apocalyptic anarchy. Removed.
"Escape From New York" It's a society with a lot of crime, but that's about it. They built a huge prison, but from what we can tell the condemned got due process. However, "Escape From LA" might be a better fit. - Agreed. Done.
"Freejack" Like Blade Runner. - Haven't seen it, but it sounds a lot like corporate dystopia.
"Mad Max" This is a society that's gradually breaking down. But we still recognize it as our society, with all the familiar institutions operating like they always do. The only real problem is there's more crime and the police are getting overwhelmed. - Agreed. Post-apocalypitc anarchy. Removed.
"The Matrix" This one should be debated. Does it count as a dystopia if there's no society at all, just an elaborate virtual world that we're all plugged into but isn't even real and we're just batteries? - The way I see it, any movie, however realistic, is a derivative of reality. In this movie, the matrix itself is a derivative of reality in the movie. So the movie is focussed on a derivative of a reality that's a derivative of reality from the viewers eyes. Yikes, nobody's going to understand that!  What I'm essentially saying is that the apparent society that is the matrix is dystopic, i.e., the 'inhabitants' have no idea that they are totally controlled and oppressed because the society appears 'normal'. Whereas the society of Zion isn't dystopic, it's simply a siege society, i.e., the masses are unified in resistance against their oppressors.
"The Omega Man" Post-apocalyptic. I wouldn't call that society dystopic...I'd call it pure hell on Earth. - I haven't seen it, but it looks like you're right. Removed.
"The Postman" Post-apocalyptic. - I don't remember much about this one (my crap memory and the fact that the movie wasn't memorable, all I remember was Costner's egocentric mugshots and slow-mo heroic riding scenes). Was the post-apocalyptic society dystopic? It looks more "Mad Max-ish", ie, roaming bands of thugs and a power struggle. If so, then it's removed.
"Resident Evil" Sort of a zombie movie. - Yep, but I'd call it 'corporate dystopia', i.e., a massively powerful corporation doing what it likes, with it's own SWAT team etc.
"Robocop" Very similar society to what we see in Mad Max. It might be heading in the direction of government serving corporations...but it's not there yet. - Plenty of crime, sure, but corporate dystopia again, I would say.
"The Terminator" Post-apocalyptic, with humans on the verge of total extinction. - Agreed. It's a war for survival. Removed.
"They Live" I love this movie...but it's just a silly alien invasion film. - Just realised that I've seen it too, but agree that oppression by aliens doesn't count. Removed.
"Total Recall" Also should be debated. Earth society is no different from ours. It's only on Mars that you have a whole society that's really run and owned by corporate interests. But that Mars society does seem dystopic. Discuss. - I agree. Corporate dystopia on Mars.
"Twelve Monkeys" Do we know enough about that future society to call it dystopic? And isn't it really just a post-apocalyptic film? - Agreed. Removed.
"Waterworld" Post-apocalyptic, with all the usual total anarchy stuff. - Yep again. Removed.
A lot of these people will disagree with depending on their own definitions of "dystopia." But I think one key is that you have to have a functioning society, just one that's been perverted in some way. The post-apoc films I've listed don't present a society that's been horribly twisted...rather, it's been completely destroyed altogether, and humans have been reduced to pure survival, almost like animals. |
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 09/21/2006 : 02:13:00
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quote:
Originally posted by BaftaBabe
Not sure if these meet your stringent criteria  , but I reckon any society that allows/sanctions the premises of these flicks would be dystopic -- oh, wait, that might be us
Westworld http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070909/
Tron http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084827/
Derek Jarman's Jubilee http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076240/
I've seen none of those although they look good enough. I'll have to put them on my rent list. 
Westworld:- I couldn't see much about the society in any plot summary, except that it didn't look dystopic. Anyone got any thoughts on this?
Tron:- It could be likened to the Matrix, i.e., a computerised 'society' that could be considered dystopic. Anyone?
Jubilee:- Yep, this looks like corporate dystopia. I'll add it unless anyone disagrees. |
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 09/21/2006 : 02:20:01
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Dammit, I can see a conflict here. I've allowed oppression by machines ("Matrix") but not by aliens ("They Live") which is not logical. 
Perhaps I should redefine it to allow oppression by machines and aliens IF the masses don't realise they're oppressed because the aliens/machines have taken human form, i.e., in "They Live" and Mr Smith in "The Matrix"? |
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Downtown
"Welcome back, Billy Buck"
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Posted - 09/21/2006 : 03:37:16
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| All the machine oppressors were originally built by men before they turned on them. No conflict at all. In fact, it's a very dystopic theme, the irony that the inventions that are supposed to make our lives easier eventually enslave us. |
Edited by - Downtown on 09/21/2006 04:33:39 |
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GHcool
"Forever a curious character."
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Posted - 09/21/2006 : 06:00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
Dammit, I can see a conflict here. I've allowed oppression by machines ("Matrix") but not by aliens ("They Live") which is not logical.
Perhaps I should redefine it to allow oppression by machines and aliens IF the masses don't realise they're oppressed because the aliens/machines have taken human form, i.e., in "They Live" and Mr Smith in "The Matrix"?
As a comment on government/politics, the situation in The Matrix has more in common with hegemony than dystopia.
I haven't seen They Live. |
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 09/21/2006 : 06:25:16
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quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
As a comment on government/politics, the situation in The Matrix has more in common with hegemony than dystopia.
Although it would be an unusual hegemony in that the masses don't realise the controller exists.
I just had a look at the dictionary.com definition of dystopia, and it says:-
- Society characterized by human misery, as squalor, oppression, disease, and overcrowding.
- An imaginary place or state in which the condition of life is extremely bad, as from deprivation, oppression, or terror.
Those are pretty broad definitions. I'm not sure that common usage is that broad, I suspect the more elaborate description in Wikipedia is perhaps more in line with modern usage. If I used the above definition, Star Wars, most war movies, any holocaust movie etc would have to be included. Not only that, but any flawed utopia (such as Brave New World) or 'apparently normal' society that is rotten under the surface (such as V for Vendetta) would have to be excluded. |
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bife 
"Winners never quit ... fwfr ... "
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randall 
"I like to watch."
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Posted - 09/21/2006 : 15:10:23
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quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
Dammit, I can see a conflict here. I've allowed oppression by machines ("Matrix") but not by aliens ("They Live") which is not logical.
Perhaps I should redefine it to allow oppression by machines and aliens IF the masses don't realise they're oppressed because the aliens/machines have taken human form, i.e., in "They Live" and Mr Smith in "The Matrix"?
As a comment on government/politics, the situation in The Matrix has more in common with hegemony than dystopia.
I haven't seen They Live.
Notable for only two things:
(1) Roddy Piper's line that has worked its way into pop culture: "I'm here to chew bubble gum and kick ass, and I'm all out of bubble gum!"
(2) The longest fistfight in the history of the movies, between Piper and Keith David. It goes on so long that it actually becomes comical, which I believe was Carpenter's intent.
I don't think films like THEY LIVE and BODY SNATCHERS depict dystopia. In these flicks, the aliens are trying to achieve a dystopic society. WESTWORLD isn't dystopic at all! [A rich-folks' amusement park just breaks down, but you still have happy, consuming rich folks.]*
This is a fascinating thread. I don't have anything more to add, but boy, is it fun to read.
*I wonder how many Gen-Xers and younger, having grown up on WESTWORLD, will one day stumble upon THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN and wonder, "What the hell is going on?" |
Edited by - randall on 09/21/2006 15:21:59 |
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Cheese_Ed
"The Provolone Ranger"
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Posted - 09/21/2006 : 18:43:06
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I'm not arguing for any of these, I'll throw them out there, you do the research and debate.
A Clockwork Orange
Black Moon
The Truman Show
Starship Troopers
Sleeper
The Time Machine
Slipstream
Split Second
Cherry 2000
Silent Running
Dark City
eXistenZ
Fifth Element
Screamers
The Thirteenth Floor
Final Cut
Ultraviolet
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MM0rkeleb
"Better than HBO."
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Posted - 09/21/2006 : 19:47:37
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I'd like to suggest throwing in A Scanner Darkly. Now, I haven't seen it, but it sounds like it's somewhat dystopic, and given that my review of 'Rotostopia' was accepted, fwfr seems to count it as dystopic.
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GHcool
"Forever a curious character."
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Posted - 09/21/2006 : 20:07:57
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A Clockwork Orange - debatable; technology/politics explored, but not much talk of utopian ideals
The Truman Show - debatable; technology and utopian ideals are explored, but its not really a political film
Starship Troopers - debatable
Sleeper - I would say so
The Time Machine - probably not; no mention of utopian ideals
Silent Running - probably not; more ecological than political
Dark City - probably not for reasons similar to The Matrix
eXistenZ - definately not; it highlights technology and abstract philosophy, but not government/political aspects of its use
Fifth Element - it would take a lot to convince me
Final Cut -interesting, but probably not for the same reasons as eXistenZ
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Edited by - GHcool on 09/21/2006 20:21:27 |
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 09/22/2006 : 01:58:56
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quote:
Originally posted by bife
How about something like 'The lion, the witch and the wardrobe'? I guess it isn't usually quoted as dystopian, but it seems to fit the requirements.
I think stuff like this is just too far removed from reality to be considered dystopian. I.e., as soon as you add aliens, talking animals, magic etc then it becomes absolute fantasy.quote:
I thought this was an interesting definition and explanation of 'dystopia', better than the wikepedia entry, although obviously no more 'definitive'
Well spotted. This sums up what I had in mind for the genre pretty well. I think I'll use this as the framework for the accolade. Of note is the absence of post-apocalyptic anarchy in this definition. I also liked the analogy with film-noir which is also a hard one to pin down other than with a long list of common themes and details. |
Edited by - Sean on 09/22/2006 02:14:55 |
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 09/22/2006 : 03:09:05
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GENERAL SPOILER WARNING!
quote:
Originally posted by Cheese_Ed
I'm not arguing for any of these, I'll throw them out there, you do the research and debate.
A Clockwork Orange - Brain reprogramming is enough to make this fit.
Black Moon - Seems more like a future conflict/war situation rather than dystopic. Anyone seen this agree/disagree?
The Truman Show - Hmmm, only one victim, the rest of society seemed 'normal'.
Starship Troopers - Hmmm again. A militarised future on earth would make it fit, I think I'll add it. Thoughts, anyone?
Sleeper - Yep.
The Time Machine - Haven't seen it , but it looks like it fits. I don't see lack of mention of utopia as an issue, there's more to dystopia than simply a failed utopia.
Slipstream - Could be a fit, but not on fwfr though.
Split Second - Perhaps, not on fwfr though.
Cherry 2000 - Yep.
Silent Running - I thought this was already in the accolade, not sure how I missed it. I don't see the problem with mankinds problems being envirnomental, as major environmental issues are political anyway. In this future the government has absolute power over the very existence of all remaining plant matter, I think it qualifies as a dystopia.
Dark City - Humans oppressed by aliens doesn't count, it wasn't self-inflicted. Unless I missed something.
eXistenZ - More of a fantasy world, I don't remember much about the society. Thoughts anyone?
Fifth Element - A high-tech future, but the society didn't appear oppressive or that there was anything particularly wrong with it.
Screamers - I haven't see it, but it looks too distant from earth, and not sure if it mentions earth society. Anyone?
The Thirteenth Floor - Haven't seen it. And got no idea from the plot summary. Anyone else? Is it a dystopic society?
Final Cut - Haven't seen it. Is there anything particularly wrong with this future society? Anyone? It does sound similar to eXistenZ, ie, a future society with serious technology, but is that all there is to it?
Ultraviolet - Ain't seen. Perhaps it might fit, but does seem a bit like a post-apocalyptic fantasy world, ie, it's hard to relate it to present society. Anyone?
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Edited by - Sean on 09/22/2006 03:10:50 |
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Dystopia
